Link To Cancelling Autorenewal ...

Try this link to Avangate to cancel your autorenewal:


https://store.bitdefender.com/support/secti...n#actualContent


I got it from a poster here on the forum. I have never gotten any help or having my issues resolved from any Bitdefender staff member !


I suspect it being deliberately (almost) impossible (or tough) to find out where to cancel renewal. There must be a reason why I have


never gotten any assistance and why it is so tough to find out where to cancel.


I am done with this product for MANY reasons - this being just one of them.

Comments

  • Try this link to Avangate to cancel your autorenewal:


    https://store.bitdefender.com/support/secti...n#actualContent


    I got it from a poster here on the forum. I have never gotten any help or having my issues resolved from any Bitdefender staff member !


    I suspect it being deliberately (almost) impossible (or tough) to find out where to cancel renewal. There must be a reason why I have never gotten any assistance and why it is so tough to find out where to cancel.


    I am done with this product for MANY reasons - this being just one of them.

  • The information has never been hidden or hard to find.


    Fact is you have never bothered to read the emails sent to you at time of purchase.


    Avangate send you a receipt and details of your account and what you can do within the account interface.


    Dealing with auto renewal is clearly set out in the email, and you have the choice of selecting renewal /no renewal at time of purchase.


    Too many people just press " Yes" to anything and moan after the event, just as they do with PuP's and toolbars.


    Bitdefender is far from perfect but this problem is down to you. The auto renewal question has also been set out within the BD FAQ's.

  • edited August 2014

    I had recently thought to double check that and dug through my old emails to find the link, and to my surprise I was actually due for an autorenewal. I recall seeing the options of it back when I bought BD, in September of 2013. I was aware of the option so it's not something I merely overlooked. That is simply something that I very very rarely use for any subscription/purchase that isn't monthly. It is very unlikely that I actually chose to allow auto-renewal, yet it was enabled.


    While it's possible that I did (for some reason I can't recall) let that go being enabled, I do consider it extremely shady that there seems to be no link to Avangate's options anywhere on BD's website. I know there is an option (auto-selected I believe) when an order is placed, but there is no other notification or way to even check that autorenewal without looking up the link the receipt and logging into a completely separate Avangate account that most people likely don't realize they have. The entire process seems to be designed for the consumer to not notice or forget about the renewal. And those that do remember are likely to not have the link to Avangate, or know their login info.


    After discovering my unknown autorenewal, I did a little research and found more than a few forum threads on the same issue. Some even claiming that they were still charged after specifically disabling autorenewal (even receiving confirmations of the disable). It's easy to shrug off the claims as people just carelessly clicking and not noticing the autorenew checkbox, but after my own experience I am suspicious. In any case, with absolutely no confirmation/mention on the receipts, no mention/notice on our BitDefender accounts, and a link/account login that appears only in the original email, this is a very shady renewal system.


    I will definitely be watching my credit card charge very carefully, as I do suspect I will likely have a fraudulent charge from Avangate/BD next month. A am certainly not paying the $120 Avangate planned on charging me for the family pack in BD2015's current state. Like the OP, this is just another strike against the many, most coming from 2015's current buggy state.


    These problems might be with Avangate, but BitDefender chose use that them for their store and continues to use them long after multiple complaints from users about this.

  • edited August 2014
    I do consider it extremely shady that there seems to be no link to Avangate's options anywhere on BD's website.


    Not only seems > there isn´t. I used a massive amount of time yesterday trying to find an option or a link to that autorenewal


    from BD´s pages, just to be sure and to justify BD´s process if I should have overlooked something, but ... nowhere


    was I led into such an option and nowhere was a link to Avangate to be found. So that led me to your next perception ...



    The entire process seems to be designed for the consumer to not notice or forget about the renewal. And those that do


    remember are likely to not have the link to Avangate, or know their login info.


    It seems more than shady because I experienced yesterday following the link (posted to me in another thread), that I had no such


    account on Avangate - I had to register to log in, and after that - I could enter my account options. To have a proof that I cancelled


    my autorenewal I took screenshots of the entire process. And yes, also because as I´ve read in other threads ... people are still billed


    despite a sure cancellation.


    In any case, with absolutely no confirmation/mention on the receipts, no mention/notice on our BitDefender accounts, and a


    link/account login that appears only in the original email, this is a very shady renewal system.


    I consider it deliberately - nothing less. Simply because: I asked myself this ... why is it that I bought the product via the BD´s pages,


    but my purchase was obviously registered, stored and hosted by a company I had no such access to, and on gaining final access


    I experienced that I had no account registered ?


    These problems might be with Avangate, but BitDefender chose use that them for their store and continues to use them long


    after multiple complaints from users about this.


    They will eventually experience a massive loss of subscribers. As for me ... I am permanently off BD. The product works, but considering


    their customer service and resolving issues process - I have experienced absolutely nothing that made a difference, or anything


    that told me that they were forthcoming.


    *


    Your reply is greatly appreciated since it tells me that I am not on the wrong track, that they do merely nothing (if at all) about this issue


    and that my experiences are valid and authentic. Have a great day - thank you !

  • edited August 2014

    Good for you being such a perfect human, continue - but I can´t wait until you begin to experience same amount of problems that I have


    read other customers have - as well as myself.


    I don´t whine - I do something about it. Something tells me (reading other threads about this and a experiencing a general lack of services)


    that it is a deliberate process.


    But you might not agree with me on that, and I really don´t care.


    If the process is deliberate - then a lot of people WILL overlook an option to uncheck an autorenewal - and after reading a lot of threads


    added to my own experiences ... something tells me that it is set up such a way that many people not act in such a way that they discover


    the (as you so fine state) obvious option to cancel or uncheck an autorenewal.


    But again ... I don´t care about your opinion. I just wanted to help people finding the option to cancel the renewal since it is not at all an


    easy or logical process to do so !


    Have a nice day ...


    PS ... Since you are so smart ... can you logically explain why it is that I had to register on Avangates pages to get in, so I could cancel


    the renewal ?


    Comment: If I´ve been there before (so I could decheck the renewal option) I consider it worthwhile poundering on the fact that I should have


    had an account already - right ? But I didn´t ... why ?

  • I consider it deliberately - nothing less. Simply because: I asked myself this ... why is it that I bought the product via the BD´s pages,


    but my purchase was obviously registered, stored and hosted by a company I had no such access to, and on gaining final access


    I experienced that I had no account registered ?


    Using a third party, on its own, wasn't really surprising to me. I've had other software developers bill through outside companies. I used Kaspersky for many years, and they used to sell via DigitalRiver. The key difference was the transparency in what was going on, and the lack of needing to register additional accounts in order to alter auto-payment settings. The third party account was there, but it was created for me, and it was linked to via the main storefront page.


    I still have my original receipt emails from BitDefender/Avangate. One of them actually says that I will need to register using the same address to access that account. But apparently Avangate already has some sort of account saved before that, because autorenewal was already set up on it. The only mention of autorenewal in any email is this bolded line:


    With Avangate MyAccount you can:


    * View order details and keep track of your online orders status


    * Gain instant access to your online shopping history


    * Re-download license keys/codes* and download invoices


    * Manage your subscription payments (auto-renewal), if your product supports such an option.


    * Renew the license of the purchased software when it expires


    * Find support contact details such as phone and email addresses of software publishers


    * Download the installation files of the purchased software (if Download Insurance was also purchased with your product)


    That is only mentioning what this account can be used for. There is absolutely no indication that I was, in fact, already signed up for automated renewal. I just wish I had some printed receipt or other confirmation that I actually unchecked that auto-renew option on my original order. The fact that I was aware of the option means (knowing that I don't use such options) that I am highly unlikely to have chosen to allow it, but it is possible that I did for some reason I don't recall now.

  • edited August 2014
    Good for you being such a perfect human, continue - but I can´t wait until you begin to experience same amount of problems that I have


    read other customers have - as well as myself.


    I don´t whine - I do something about it. Something tells me (reading other threads about this and a experiencing a general lack of services)


    that it is a deliberate process.


    But you might not agree with me on that, and I really don´t care.


    If the process is deliberate - then a lot of people WILL overlook an option to uncheck an autorenewal - and after reading a lot of threads


    added to my own experiences ... something tells me that it is set up such a way that many people not act in such a way that they discover


    the (as you so fine state) obvious option to cancel or uncheck an autorenewal.


    But again ... I don´t care about your opinion. I just wanted to help people finding the option to cancel the renewal since it is not at all an


    easy or logical process to do so !


    Have a nice day ...


    PS ... Since you are so smart ... can you logically explain why it is that I had to register on Avangates pages to get in, so I could cancel


    the renewal ?


    Comment: If I´ve been there before (so I could decheck the renewal option) I consider it worthwhile poundering on the fact that I should have


    had an account already - right ? But I didn´t ... why ?


    Like I said, you need to read first. The email from Avangate, at time of purchase tells you how to set up, access and use the account.

  • I used Kaspersky for many years, and they used to sell via DigitalRiver.


    The key difference was the transparency in what was going on, and the lack of needing to register additional accounts in order


    to alter auto-payment settings. The third party account was there, but it was created for me, and it was linked to via the main


    storefront page.


    True ... I used Kaspersky for many years myself and I have never experienced any shady conflict or lack of transparency or service


    - wether it be customer or the software itself. And guess what ... I'll go back to them - never had any problems.


    Thanks again for all the time you spent and clarification - you have without any doubt ... helped other subscribers :)

  • Like I said, you need to read first. The email from Avangate, at time of purchase tells you how to set up, access and use the account.


    Read the answers in this post


    http://forum.bitdefender.com/index.php?showtopic=55127


    - and nice evade of my question (I really can´t respect people only stating the obvious), like this second question:


    Why is it that (let´s say I made a blunder) have not gotten ANY assistance, replies or help from BD staff to sort out my


    problem ?


    I have written to them via email, I have used their support tool different ways and several times - as well as I have tried to report via their


    website which again in turn leads to using their support tool which in turn just stalls ... without any progress.


    But alas - read the answers in the post I linked to ...


    And I STILL wonder why it is that I (as I experienced) did NOT have an account registered at Avangate, but you doesn´t seem to have an


    answer to that (probably why you evaded).


    Unless you have some real answers instead of ventilating the obvious, no need to write because I won´t read or comment anymore.

  • GeorgiaGeorgia ✭✭
    edited August 2014

    Hi Nutdefender,


    Welcome to the Bitdefender forums.


    If your request to cancel the auto-renewal of the Bitdefender license key hasn't been handled yet, please post your ticket ID to do a follow-up on your case and see what happened on our end.


    This is the official article regarding the Automatic Renewal:


    http://www.bitdefender.com/support/i-do-no...enewal-542.html


    Thank you very much, looking forward to hearing from you.

  • Hi Nutdefender,


    Welcome to the Bitdefender forums.


    If your request to cancel the auto-renewal of the Bitdefender license key hasn't been handled yet, please post your ticket ID to do a follow-up on your case and see what happened on our end.


    This is the official article regarding the Automatic Renewal:


    http://www.bitdefender.com/support/i-do-no...enewal-542.html


    Thank you very much, looking forward to hearing from you.


    A regular member was kind enough to post a link where I could possibly make an attempt to cancel the autorenewal.


    On entering Avangate I had to register (worthwhile a thought that I didn't have an account registered there, right ?) - then afterwards I could


    go into my settings and cancel the auto renewal myself.


    And ... incredible that I tried to write exactly you a PM, but was blocked since it said that the profile was blocked from receiving PM's.


    This story has been to messy and too chaotic, so ... no you can´t help me. I figured out myself and will go back to a previous anti malware


    program that works - and without problems.


    And besides it took time to give me the option you offered. Since the whole mess started a week ego, it took a good amount of time to respond.


    And the issue that started it all hasn´t been resolved yet.


    I am not impressed with the service provided by any source of Bitdefender.


    Have a nice day ...

  • Shouldn't that support article have the link to the Avangate/BD account login where the auto-renewal option is? It seems strange that people are immediately sent to customer support contact forms (that I've seen multiple reports of people having difficulties with cancelling through), instead of a page where auto-renewal can (supposedly) be disabled with a few clicks.


    Those emailed receipts should also specifically list whether or not auto-renewal is active or not. A reminder email a year later (that can get caught in spam filters) shouldn't be the only notification that this service is active. People generally aren't going to expect that an account they haven't even registered for yet will have auto-renew enabled already. Auto-renew really should only be an option after the Avangate account has been registered. At a bare minimum, the auto-renew status should be listed on our MyBitDefender license page.


    As I've mentioned above, I am fully aware of the option on the order page, and I'm fairly certain I chose to not allow auto-renew. Yet I did find it was enabled. I really shouldn't have to register an extra account just to make sure that option isn't active.


    Is there also no renewal discount applied for auto-renews? Avangate's site listed that they intended to charge me $120 to renew my Family Pack, which is actually $20 higher than last year's full price. Most other security software I've dealt with has offered renewal discounts, and there is even this renewal/discount link on bitdefender.com http://www.bitdefender.com/renewal/?icid=menu_quickrenew


    The entire Avangate/auto-renewal system just looks like it's made from the ground up to go unnoticed and overcharge customers.

  • Shouldn't that support article have the link to the Avangate/BD account login where the auto-renewal


    option is? It seems strange that people are immediately sent to customer support contact forms


    (that I've seen multiple reports of people having difficulties with cancelling through), instead of a page


    where auto-renewal can (supposedly) be disabled with a few clicks.


    mr_stealth ... right you are once again. There must be a reason why there isn´t a link directly to a third


    party involvement - it seems very much they want people to give up cancelling because it is a tedious


    and a lengthy process (at least for me).


    Let me tell what happens when I try using this support form (which I have ... innumerous times) - so


    this Georgia thing doesn´t help me at all, she is just pointing in a direction where I have been many


    times and without Progress:


    ---


    After an issue where I couldn´t import my exported wallet database in a newly created wallet, I gave up on BD


    because I didn´t get any response ... and no support.


    * On trying to import my exported wallet file, this happened ...


    * I created a new wallet and set up a master password. In this newly created wallet there was NO


    option to import the wallet file - so I could not import the wallet file into a new created wallet.


    Goody ... I deleted the created wallet because there was an option telling "Import wallet" (next to


    create new wallet).


    * When clicking this option "import wallet" I could only import a wallet file after entering my master


    password ... which could ONLY be set in the "create new wallet" - which in turn didn´t have an option


    to import a wallet into a newly created wallet, and so on ... ... ...


    * A true catch 22 - where no matter what I did - I couldn´t progress.


    * And by jove ... in my wallet I didn´t have an option to change my master password - which was the


    reason for the first issue.


    So ... (and here it begins)


    ---


    On trying to report the issue via the link in the article [click here] ... (in the support article, to which she


    refers > in the "how it works" paragraph), I wrote about the issue ... I got this:


    Shortly after I got an auto response in e-mail saying that I should download and run a support tool


    (that - in short - did exactly the same as the website issue report form).


    Problem was that this support tool stalled and didn´t progress, so I couldn´t report the issue at all !


    Then came the next and this set of problems: Finding out how to cancel my subscription, because I


    preferred to go back to Kaspersky.


    Then I went through all this mess, chaos and no support or support tool working. Now comes the fun


    part ... when I used the report webform I (again - as many times before) received an email response


    telling me that I should download and run the support tool - which...


    ... (now comes the even funnier part) didn´t work ! As it didn´t before - so for me


    the link [click here] under the "how it works" paragraph was an empty option because I could neither


    report via this website form, neither could I ask for a supported cancel via the website report form


    ... nor via the support tool they so readily asked me to use, which ... didn´t work.


    A bunch of catch 22´s - website report form that only leads to them telling you to use the support Tool,


    which in turn doesn´t work, because it doesn´t progress.


    And that´s why I decided to try here, and a good regular member helped me out. NO help or anything


    from BD.


    ---


    All in all I concur with your suspicion about their shady "readiness", lack of workable options or willingness


    to really assist.


    In short ... "make it hard - then people maybe give up halfways". I have totally lost respect for the BD


    staff - and the product.

  • edited August 2014

    Reply to AdrianHA: Good for you being such a perfect human, continue - but I can´t wait until you begin to experience same amount of problems that I have


    read other customers have - as well as myself.


    I don´t whine - I do something about it. Something tells me (reading other threads about this and a experiencing a general lack of services)


    that it is a deliberate process.


    But you might not agree with me on that, and I really don´t care.


    If the process is deliberate - then a lot of people WILL overlook an option to uncheck an autorenewal - and after reading a lot of threads


    added to my own experiences ... something tells me that it is set up such a way that many people not act in such a way that they discover


    the (as you so fine state) obvious option to cancel or uncheck an autorenewal.


    But again ... I don´t care about your opinion. I just wanted to help people finding the option to cancel the renewal since it is not at all an


    easy or logical process to do so !


    Have a nice day ...


    PS ... Since you are so smart ... can you logically explain why it is that I had to register on Avangates pages to get in, so I could cancel


    the renewal ?


    Comment: If I´ve been there before (so I could decheck the renewal option) I consider it worthwhile poundering on the fact that I should have


    had an account already - right ? But I didn´t ... why ?

  • If I'm reading your post correctly...they wanted you to download and run a support tool in order to help you with cancelling your auto-renewal/subscription?


    I can't think of any reason why such a request would ever require more than a single message submitted via a web form.

  • edited August 2014
    If I'm reading your post correctly...they wanted you to download and run a support tool in order to help you with cancelling your


    auto-renewal/subscription?


    I can't think of any reason why such a request would ever require more than a single message submitted via a web form.


    In short ... correct.


    After the wallet issue - reported via the web form - which lead to an email telling me to download the support tool - which didn't work,


    which I tried to report via the web form - which sent me an email telling me to download and run the support tool - which didn´t work ...


    I decided to stop my subscription. I started a thorough search for a link on the BD webpages - but as you yourself experienced ... no link, so ...


    I tried to ask them to cancel my autorenewal via the web form which ... lead to an email telling me to report via the support yool - which ...


    didn´t work, which I again tried to report via the website form, which ... sent me an email telling me to run the support tool, which ...


    and so on - NOTHING worked and I had NO support or ANY means to get in touch with them other than this forum. The above attempts was


    done many times over and over and over, but it was the same loop each and every time.


    And here comes a more shadier part: each time I used the web form, I got an auto response email telling that they received my report - and


    they will look into it.


    Shortly after I got a personal email telling me to download and run this support tool - and the shady part is ... the content of this "download


    and run" is different in each email, which means that staff members sent me an email with personal writings and content - in other words:


    this response is NOT an autoresponse ! It is read and responded in ... a personal letter and manner.


    So ... why not just responding on the original report via the webform. No ... a person writes me personally and tells me to run the support tool.


    Why is that ? Yes - suspiciously shady ...


    Then I started here and when I tried to look for a staff member in here - it was not quite obvious WHO was a technical support member, but


    I found at least three, who seemed to be able to assist me.


    I tried to send them a PM asking me to help me out on this matter - cancelling the renewal.


    I couldn´t because each and every time I was told that they were blocked from receiving PM´s, so I gave up after the third attempt - and the


    above Georgia was one of them.


    Then I started posting on the forum and finally a regular member posted a link to Avangate, where I discovered I had to register an account


    (means I have never been in there - and my subscription registration was created behind my back).


    I received an email a couple of days ago telling me that THEY had cancelled my autorenewal. (I censor this myself) *** I did it


    myself andthey did NOT cancel it for me.


    And now this Georgia posts here, writing - telling me to report via the web form, which I already know will send me an email telling me to run


    a support tool (and then I could dtart the loop again) ...


    I must admit ... it takes a genius to create this loop and no response/block system, because it is the first time I have experienced a non working


    system ... working so perfectly. And probably also a genius who has a good insight in human psychology and response behaviour.


    Maybe BD can be mildly defended by having this third party account and subscription company working for them and their methods can´t


    burden BD, but there is NO excuse for BD´s own behaviourism, lack of service, no links, "loop and block" systems. I wouldn´t wonder if it was


    a system deliberately set up in coorperation between BD and Avangate including some bright people being paid to include their insight.


    ---


    As you yourself have experienced and states - it seems to have become a suspiciously shady process to have an autorenewal cancelled.


    Which brings me to my next suspicion ... can I really trust the program, firewall and scanner ? Is there a chance that they deliberately come


    up with some false positives that really can´t be transparent - to keep us alert of how good it works ?


    To some extend yes it works, and it works in tests, but a lot of times it says "services not responding". And the lack of option to change


    the master password inside the wallet preferences leaves me with a bad experience.


    Or, have they simply become too arrogant (too many companies do that when they grow too big).


    Either they are amateurs when it comes to subscription registrations and support ... or they have a good set up which are not quite


    transparent.


    Just a thought ...

  • In short ... correct.


    Forgot to write - and the support tool does the same as the web form: reporting with some of the same input fields as in the web form, but


    with an extra option: recreating an issue that was the cause for the report. Then the tool will gather information and send the report when


    the issue has been detected (probably).


    I had a personal letter asking me to use the support tool and dechecking the option "recreate the issue" when reporting the wallet issue.


    So ... they DO read and reply in personal.


    As you, I AM wondering: why not just react on my request about cancelling the renewal via the web form ?


    Seems more and more they try to evade and avoid ...

  • Requiring the use of the support tool for every situation just seems like really poor support policy. I can understand it's need as a information gathering tool for technical issues, but for payment/billing issues there is simply no reason for such a tool to be used. And it's rather appalling than a person actually responds suggesting such action for a completely nontechnical issue.


    As I mentioned above, I will definitely be watching my credit card activity next month. I have my email confirmation of auto-renewal being cancelled, and if any charges show up they are being immediately reported as fraud. I'm hoping that reports of "cancelled" renewals still happening are just rare occurrences or people being mistaken. It's not something I think would be intentional, but a bug like that still being around is certainly extremely careless. Looking at the Better Business Bureau reports for Avangate gave me the impression that they do not take the claims very seriously, dismissing charges for cancelled/disabled renewals as "technically impossible".


    In my opinion, BitDefender isn't clear of blame for Avangate's issues. They continue using the service despite complaints on this forum and to the BBB. There are plenty of other payment processors they could be using.

  • edited August 2014
    Requiring the use of the support tool for every situation just seems like really poor support policy. I can understand it's need as a information gathering tool for technical issues, but for payment/billing issues there is simply no reason for such a tool to be used. And it's rather appalling than a person actually responds suggesting such action for a completely nontechnical issue.


    As I mentioned above, I will definitely be watching my credit card activity next month. I have my email confirmation of auto-renewal being cancelled, and if any charges show up they are being immediately reported as fraud. I'm hoping that reports of "cancelled" renewals still happening are just rare occurrences or people being mistaken. It's not something I think would be intentional, but a bug like that still being around is certainly extremely careless. Looking at the Better Business Bureau reports for Avangate gave me the impression that they do not take the claims very seriously, dismissing charges for cancelled/disabled renewals as "technically impossible".


    In my opinion, BitDefender isn't clear of blame for Avangate's issues. They continue using the service despite complaints on this forum and to the BBB. There are plenty of other payment processors they could be using.


    Right again - your observations are exactly mine: Just for the sake of proof I copy the personal letter I got after the auto response on my report


    regarding the wallet issue - which clearly tells - they read the content in the web form (so yes a poorly or no interest in supporting the renewal issue) :


    *


    Dear XXX,


    Thank you for your reply.


    We apologize for any negative experience you have encountered with our products or our support. Your feedback is appreciated, and will be directed to the appropriate team for review, to enable us to improve our support and services.


    As previously mentioned, in order to properly process the reset password request, we would need the support tool log. You can also generate one by following the bellow steps:


    1. Go to the Support tool location from the original installation directory.


    - The default install location is:


    C:\Program Files\Bitdefender\Bitdefender


    Note: if you have installed it in a custom location please browse in there


    2. Search for a file named “supporttool” or “supporttool.exe”


    3. Right click on the supporttool.exe file and select "Run as Administrator";


    4. Fill in the required information


    - Leave the field “I want to reproduce issue” unchecked and press the "Next" button (make sure you use a valid email address and include a detailed description of the issue you are encountering);


    5. Wait until the process is complete and click on Finish


    - A file will be created on your desktop (BDSP_*); send it to us in reply to this email by attaching it.


    Thank you for taking the time and please do not hesitate to contact us if you need further details from us.


    Have a nice day !


    Best regards,


    Bichir Mihail


    Bitdefender Support Team


    [attach:signature_image:557XSZABMJYYS55687612C16F:semnatura.png>


    -------------------


    http://www.bitdefender.com/support


    http://forum.bitdefender.com

  • edited August 2014

    Googling: avangate complaints


    17,300 hits - This is just a few links ...


    http://www.scambook.com/company/view/9655/Avangate


    http://www.bbb.org/greater-san-francisco/b...0104/complaints


    http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/directory/avangate


    http://www.complaintboard.com/avangate-com-l1492.html


    *


    Googling: avangate complaints and scams


    12,400 hits


    *


    Googling: avangate scams


    18,400 hits


    *


    But BD lost me - not only because of Avangate - they did quite a good job themselves by being indifferent and solid inactive.

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